But I think as a metaphor it fits for a lot of different things. Are there areas where they overlap? Audrey has 6 jobs listed on their profile. That as ideas or business practices or business models are developed, that can really start to scale and to spread more quickly with the benefit of the business engine behind it, that's I think where business can really come in and be the instrumental in driving change at the speed and scale we need to meet some of the biggest challenges ahead. And so for so many investors for so long, there was a sense that professionals should do it, that you as an individual, your job is to manage your career and to count your investments but that at some point, right, you didn't necessarily need to know everything about every single investment and underlining and whatnot. Molly Mintz: Who each have a unique and distinct interpretation of gender's role in ESG. Sonja Gibbs: It's early days yet, but there will certainly be some recommendations around enhancing the role of women in the corporate environment. On a personal note, how has overseeing sustainability and sustainable investing for the IIF shaped your personal view of gender equality and these different inclusivity concerns? We have talked with 16 ESG leaders and influencers and came up with 15 key trends to follow in 2020. There's a tremendous amount of consultation going on at the G20 level and also with the  B20, the Business 20, which will be looking at some of these same issues from a private sector, corporate point of view. Compared to other generations, millennials are three times as likely to pick an employer based on their ESG performance. I mean, in the financial services industry in particular, if your board is comprised of CEOs of global financial institutions, you don't have a big pool to draw from. Mona Naqvi: Yeah, and you know what? Tax dollars and philanthropy alone are not sufficient to fix the world’s problems. 5) Looking ahead, what is the outlook for sustainable investing, in the short and long term? Obviously, in an international context, that's going to mean something different in each country, from an ethnic and racial background, obviously gender diversity is a part of that, but there's also really thinking about diversity of thought and diversity of backgrounds. Corporate And in ensuring that you have adequate representation of women in senior management and boards,  those are not necessarily easy tasks. When we talk about investing in women, no matter where the conversations happen, what that actually means depends on who you're talking to. 4) What are the U.S. rules and regulations that have helped, or hindered, sustainable investing? View Audrey Jihye Choi’s profile on LinkedIn, the world's largest professional community. Info. The concept of inequality is much more prominent in very broad discussions,  whether that's about macroeconomics, you know, the impact of inequality on the global economy, even on financial stability. Good question. The global community is paying attention. Particularly, you know, the U.N. springs to mind. Chatting with… That could mean everything from more representation of women on boards but also more representation of women in the executive suite, in management positions, and all the way down the line, as well as all of the policies and practices that would go into making that a more, you know, high-gender equity kind of place. It has many parts of it, many factors that feed into it. I think when you're looking at, you know, you have a lot of sector specialists that will be very familiar with their particular industries, and they'll start to develop an understanding of the types of issues that are financially material and that drive value. Join to Connect. What do you think would have to change to be able to create this more level playing field across the board? So it is tricky to know, but you raised a really good point about certain economies that particularly at risk of climate change and the impacts of it, and if you look at developing economies in particular where the economic opportunities afforded to women are very closely tied to their environment and their surroundings, and the impact that environmental protection, environmental action, could have on their opportunities is not necessarily always accounted for in every decision. You know, we have these U.N. Mona Naqvi: It’s a great question. We're talking about these topics more than ever before, and then we'll know that we've accomplished what we've set out to do when we stop talking about it. In fact, you often hear the concern that there just simply aren't enough qualified women, that the pools are not large enough. One other thing that's changed in the past 10 or 20 years is the tools that there are to measure and to make these comparisons. And I don't know where I personally sit on that. by Matthias Matthijs So I think it really has to be a combination of the appropriate policies, so that there is as level of a playing field as possible, strong leadership from corporate boards, corporate leadership, and also from investors, saying, Look, if we're seeing more evidence that diverse teams perform better and that highly diverse companies are actually more successful, then I as an investor want to start seeing that in the companies that I'm investing in and, you know, perhaps even the investment teams that I'm choosing to manage my investments. Sustainable Investing Forum reported one out of every nine dollars invested in the United States had some type of sustainable mandate to it. So, how do you get to understanding how gender diversity plays out across the organization, not just in terms of the numbers but in terms of the culture of a place? Molly Mintz: It sounds like you see gender and gender-related factors straddling both the social realm and the governance realm of ESG. Tap to unmute. That could mean everything from more representation of women on boards but also more representation of women in the executive suite, in management positions, and all the way down the line, as well as all of the policies and practices that would go into making that a more, you know, high-gender equity kind of place. It's interesting to see how each, perhaps, investor or any kind of market participant or just individual defines diversity personally and professionally as you have, because obviously there is a difference. One of the themes of the leadership summit, notably, and I'm quoting, is: 'Realizing opportunities of the 21st century for all by empowering people, creating the conditions in which all people, especially women and young people can live, work and thrive.' Audrey Choi. If you look at the data or if when you think about gender as a channel through which better R&D emerges, better decision making, more diversity of opinion, then you can start to see how it's not enough just to have it at a particular level of management but to have it permeate through every level of the organization. Audrey Jihye has 3 jobs listed on their profile. So you could say is that inequality factors into these broader discussions and discussions of policy solutions for inequality, but also I think within individual firms, there's much more discussion being paid to or there's much more consideration of things like transparency and pay scales in trying to address gender pay discrepancies. You know, what your educational background is,  what your income status is, whether you're from a rural area or a city center, you know, all of this has an impact, a profound impact, on one's opportunities throughout their life and their career. The Transition 2021 series examines the major issues confronting the administration in the foreign policy arena. Does it have the right policies in place to grow in a equitable manner to limit income inequality and wealth inequality? And that's been partly bottom-up because customers and clients have been demanding it, partly that whole sort of picking up a newspaper in the morning or looking out your window and seeing protests, seeing that people in so many parts of the world are fed up with how the system works. As chief marketing officer, Choi is responsible for stewarding the brand to reflect the firm’s core values of leading with integrity and exceptional ideas across its businesses and geographies. Keesa Schreane "Sustainability Perspectives" Podcast Host, Director of Partnerships, Refinitiv. Because you can imagine any world where you have significant social unrest that's associated with inequality, that's going to reverberate into, feed into, systemic instability in some instances. So I really do feel like, again, as whether it's the first time you're making investments or the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world, the largest asset owners in the world, the whole journey always starts by just asking the question. What do you think that companies and countries need to do to take it a step further? Audrey Choi is chief marketing officer and chief sustainability officer of Morgan Stanley. Then perhaps gender doesn't play as big of a role in terms of the share of revenue it can be accounted to. Molly Mintz: Mona Naqvi, Senior Director of ESG Product Management at S&P Dow Jones Indices... Mona Naqvi: If you look at the data or when you think about gender as a channel through which better R&D emerges, better decision-making, more diversity of opinion, then you can start to see how it's not enough just to have gender equality at a particular level of management, but to have it permeate through every level of the organization. What would be your sales pitch or your elevator pitch to really bring me on board to this aspect of ESG? If you're like many investors, in fact, they are the majority of investors, you're probably going to say, 'Look, I agree with all the great goals of environmental protection and social justice and good governance. When we've polled people, we found this really funny thing; we found that 86% of investors believe ESG companies to be more profitable and might be better investments, and yet 64% of people believe that if they became an ESG investor, that they would have to deal with a financial trade-off. Change Pays is about creating a more inclusive workplace to advocating gender equality. But it is also about, for investors who may be also on boards or in leadership teams, it is really raising that flag of talking about why gender equity can really be such a win-win. What's the data? So for example, you might see a networking group for 'Women in Infrastructure' that probably didn't exist, you know, five or 10 years ago. If you look at the Business Roundtable statement that came out recently, you know, these issues of parity, you might say, are very central. Assessing President Trump’s Legacy of Cyber Confusion, Blog Post I've always said certainly there's more than enough work and challenges to go around, and we desperately need a really thoughtful and fulsome partnership between NGOs and nonprofits on the ground doing direct service work, inspired philanthropy, that can actually help seed and capitalize and invest in things that aren't commercial in government and relief agencies and development agencies to really play their critical role, and that business can be a critical partner in that. For example, the gender diversity piece of this I think falls into the kind of governance and equality components of ESG and sustainability. But there are others for whom ESG is simply a tool to encompassing a broader information set that is traditionally incorporated in investment decision making, using alternative sources of data and information, and for these types of investors where they're looking at simply what is the most material or relevant based on the outcomes, financial outcomes, those are the types of investors that may focus more on this materiality standpoint. There has already been impressive growth in the field. There are companies where R&D is more important than others. Audrey Choi is the bank’s Chief Sustainability Officer and CEO of the Institute. Traditionally, there was a tendency to divide investing and philanthropy, using the first to build wealth and the other to make a positive social difference. All of these are ways to help address the gender gap. Change Pays means finally an opportunity and a platform for our collective voices to be heard. You're one step closer to unlocking our suite of comprehensive and robust tools. You can look at education, and that's actually an area where many countries have made headway; in terms of educational attainment or equality, you can look at health rates and mortality rates, and you can look at performance in the world of business or political empowerment. So it's much more widely discussed. And so within the professional context,  within the work that we're doing at Morgan Stanley to help advise investors and corporations, what we really focus on is what are the sustainability factors that are material to the business and therefore are truly relevant for investors and that can really help embody and demonstrate how sustainability factors and good long-term sustainable business that thinks that all that stakeholders can go hand in hand. If you talk to the leadership of the Central Banks and Supervisors Network for Greening the Financial System, they will say that they are here and now a coalition of the willing wanting to take this climate agenda forward, but the hope is that in 10 or 20 years, there won't need to be a network for greening the financial system because the financial system will be green. The same dollar in the high performance portfolio rose to $28.36 over the same period. And again, I might relate this back to broader ESG issues. So it is tricky to know, but you raised a really good point about certain economies that particularly at risk of climate change and the impacts of it, and if you look at developing economies in particular where the economic opportunities afforded to women are very closely tied to their environment and their surroundings, and the impact that environmental protection, environmental action, could have on their opportunities is not necessarily always accounted for in every decision. When you talk about diversity and inclusion, you know, it is looking at a variety of different kinds of diversity. Of course, all of that's great, but somehow I think that that's going to restrict my returns.' If you look at a list, there are many rankings of gender gaps and so on by country, but if you broadly look down the list, you'll see a fair amount of correlation between wealthier countries that have lower levels of both inequality and gender gaps. The other ways, you know, maybe in five, 10 years, you and I won't be having this conversation because we won't need to have it. I'm Molly Mintz. Obviously, you want that impact to be environmentally sustainable as well as socially sustainable. The attention, the growing understanding, of how much inequality has increased over the past decade or so has also shed light on gender inequality. Indeed, there are critical situations when philanthropy and government aid should be the first resort, such as when an immediate response is required, as in humanitarian efforts and disaster relief. Let's get started. While at DCM, Mark was part of the firm’s ESG team, responsible for evaluating and tracking the sustainability factors impacting portfolio companies, and assessing the suitability of companies for portfolio inclusion. Audrey Choi: I do think that the importance of policy can't be understated. So that's one way. What was really exciting is that my colleagues in Global Research recently did an in-depth study where the quantitative team together with the sustainability team looked at equities and really looked at a broad definition of gender equity —  again, so not just women on boards but really women on boards, women on management, women in executive positions, overall practices throughout a corporation — and they found that leading firms, in terms of gender diversity, actually outperforms and not only a little bit. You can have equal weighted ESG scores where you take a kind of equal weight across environmental, social, and governance issues, or you can focus on the most financially material issues depending on the sector that you're looking at based on what's most relevant. And so for so many investors for so long, there was a sense that professionals should do it, that you as an individual, your job is to manage your career and to count your investments but that at some point, right, you didn't necessarily need to know everything about every single investment and underlining and whatnot. But production challenges, vaccine nationalism, and new virus strains are all presenting hurdles. Audrey Choi is a thought leader on how finance can be harnessed to address public policy challenges. Thank you for your interest in S&P Global Market Intelligence! Thank you to Sonia, Mona, and Audrey for talking with me. Sonja Gibbs: Part of it is a bottom-up demand that something needs to be done about it. You need policy makers to design good policies. Sonja Gibbs: Sustainability is a complex concept. Sometimes the data isn't enough, but it's what we have and it's important that we work with the information that we have. Molly Mintz: When we talk about investing in women, no matter where the conversations happen, what that actually means depends on who you're talking to. Molly Mintz: What do you expect to come out on that front from the B20? And part of it is certainly a policy impetus, regulatory driver, and right now that tends to be more on climate issues, where you're seeing so many more initiatives designed to get the financial sector to focus on climate risk mitigation, on finding opportunities to finance the transition to invest in green and sustainable investments. It's something that's fundamental to business strategy. RE Clever Final. You need companies to see an economic incentive to focus on gender parity. Behind The Markets Podcast: Audrey Choi. These companies have pretty phenomenal ideas phenomenal teams and aren't getting the same attention from investors. So, how do you get to understanding how gender diversity plays out across the organization, not just in terms of the numbers but in terms of the culture of a place? I'm personally quite excited about gender diversity and also broader definitions of diversity increasingly being understood  as a real marker of good management but also of superior ability to innovate, to perform, and really to deliver the right impacts both financially as well as socially. Mona Naqvi: So I think there are a lot of international organizations that are doing a terrific job at raising the profile of gender as an important issue. Listen and subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Google Play. Gender was also right up there, but those were the top two. Audrey Choi: Climate change is obviously quite unique just  given the scale and the scope of it. Audrey Choi I see this coming from a place of conviction where the private sector plays a serious role. Morgan Stanley developed the underlying methodology for the index using data from ISS ESG. And when you go further down the totem pole and you start thinking about executive leadership and then senior management and all the different levels of the organization, which levels are the most gender diverse? You know, there are lots of issues that ESG incorporates, but gender is one where there is a direct link that countless studies have shown the more gender diverse a company is, particularly in not just the board, but in all levels of senior management, the better decisions are made and potentially the better stock market performance that you get out of that. Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Sustainability Officer at Morgan Stanley. Molly Mintz: And Audrey Choi, the Chief Marketing Officer and Chief Sustainability Officer at Morgan Stanley... Audrey Choi: We found that two issues that really rose to the top for investors are climate change and plastic waste. Actually, the Sustainable Accounting Standards Board did a study and showed that something like 93% of the U.S. equity market is actually exposed to climate risk. Do you have female leadership in various different areas of the business that are contributing to a diversity of opinion and discussion at all levels of decision making, from strategy and operations to having various different business lines and PNL's as well as the typical areas where we tend to find greater female participation? More information is at: ... (MSFT) is teaming with MSCI – the global investment community advisor on risk and ESG issues – to “accelerate innovation among the global investment industry”. So when it comes to risk management and planning, you just have a more holistic, well-rounded understanding of all the possible permutations that could arise. Whether or not the corporations or investors in those companies actually are focusing on that, climate risk is quite all pervasive, right, because it affects everything from water supply to natural resource supply to weather patterns and business continuity. You know, there's definitely a lot of overlap with some of these metrics. So I think it's important to just address that preconception in people's minds. There's different types of investors that invest in ESG for different reasons. They feel compelled to do something about it. To scale up sustainable finance, to scale up funding for sustainable development, certain conditions need to be in place. Then perhaps gender doesn't play as big of a role in terms of the share of revenue it can be accounted to. Molly Mintz: Give me one example of how S&P Dow Jones Indices addresses gender. And at Morgan Stanley’s Institute for Sustainable Investing, we examined ten thousand mutual funds across seven years of performance, comparing sustainable to traditional investing strategies. Because to address gender parity, you need really the whole of society on board. Blind job screenings and that type of thing is one way of dealing with that, but then at the same time there's another school of thought, which is that if you're of a particular social cleavage and you have been given fewer opportunities throughout your career because of it, then are you more deserving of positive discrimination to be brought on the same level, to level the playing field, so to speak? Ultimately, driving large-scale positive social and environmental change requires government, philanthropy, and investment dollars to work in common cause. Obviously across ESG, you have gender problems but in some regions of the world where climate risk is extremely high, environmental concerns would also impact populations that may be disadvantaged because of their gender or socioeconomic status How do you see the interconnectedness of different ESG factors? It can be directed towards environmental issues, toward alleviating social problems and toward better governance, and in all of these, gender plays a role. In the U.S. context, one of the most important recent changes was the revision to U.S. Department of Labor guidance around ESG investing for Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) plans, announced late last year by Secretary Thomas Perez. As part of its standard-setting work, SASB found that climate change alone affects seventy-two of seventy-nine industries—each in specific and different ways. It sounds like you see gender and gender-related factors straddling both the social realm and the governance realm of ESG. You need think tanks to come up with white papers. So the combination of those two things, sort of bottom-up demand from clients and customers and then maybe a top-down steer from policy makers and regulators, have combined to put all of these ESG issues right at the forefront of attention. She said the ESG shift is not a 2020 phenomenon. Sonja Gibbs: I would argue that the importance of gender is increasing rapidly from a rather low base, and I think the low base is in part because you know, 10 or 15 years ago, gender issues, it's not like they didn't exist or they weren't talked about —  it's simply that in the kind of #MeToo generation, there's just far more openness and attention paid to gender issues. I'm interested in ESG, I care very strongly about environmental factors, perhaps I'm high risk on some governance factors along those lines —  but I'm really interested in gender. But I want to stress that there isn't any, you know, silver bullet or one-size-fits-all solution. Molly Mintz: What do you think that companies and countries need to do to take it a step further? February 22, 2021 At this time we are unable to offer free trials or product demonstrations directly to students. You know, each  country will want to include some agenda items that resonate particularly in their region. Do you think companies, like construction companies or utilities companies, do you think that they see gender as value driving for them as well, or is it something that's not as important to them as other ESG factors? If you discover that our solutions are not available to you, we encourage you to advocate at your university for a best-in-class learning experience that will help you long after you've completed your degree. Choi said the annual growth rate of assets invested under an ESG mandate compounded at 23% from 2014 to 2016, compared with an industry average … And that I think is a big change. This month: How important is gender in ESG? That not everybody is a finance and economics major, that you can have, you know, math and anthropology and art history and English and liberal arts, particle physics —  all of those backgrounds can really come into, how do we understand the problems that we're facing today and the challenges, and how do we develop solutions? It really is a combination of, kind of, a cultural impact that enables you to get those kinds of performance premiums. Do you think they immediately think of gender, or are they more preoccupied with environmental risks or governmental opportunities? I would say that gender is probably important for all industries. I think what's harder is finding feasible solutions or feasible ways to address a problem, but I think there's a lot of really interesting recommendations that will be coming out of the Saudi Presidency. Change Pays for me is something that combines the power of research to reinforce the importance of an inclusive and diverse workforce. Mona Naqvi: Our ESG rating methodology in general looks at a whole bunch of different ESG issues, and what we take is a sort of materiality weighted approach with any issue. I would argue that the importance of gender is increasing rapidly from a rather low base, and I think the low base is in part because you know, 10 or 15 years ago, gender issues, it's not like they didn't exist or they weren't talked about —  it's simply that in the kind of #MeToo generation, there's just far more openness and attention paid to gender issues. What are your thoughts on this? Private investment can play a crucial role in filling that gap. But it's proven problematic because it comes back to this question of the available data. Power grid operators’ struggle to prevent outages during extreme weather poses long-term problems as the physical effects of climate change accelerate. Audrey Choi: Well, you know, I think that in the personal realm, I think there is a vast array of social justice issues and other issues that may be personally very interesting to me or to you or to individuals that may or may not necessarily be an investor-relevant for the purposes of a company or an investment fund. If you think about financial services or technology or pharmaceuticals, these are all the types of industries where R&D is a really key business driver, and so we can start to see how gender plays out as being a very important metric for better success in those particular areas.
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